Kate: Welcome to the Midlife Spotlight podcast. I’m Kate Campion –
Sara: and I’m Sara Garska –
Kate: and we’re certified life coaches obsessed with helping you find joy in this next act of your life. Whether it’s reviving your midlife marriage, losing weight, or scratching that “what next” itch, we’re here to share our experience and expertise with you.
This podcast is a weekly dose of YOU time, where you get the tools and tricks to improve your health and happiness. Talking to you is so much fun, so thanks for tuning in. Let’s get started.
Kate: Hello and welcome to Midlife's Spotlight, the show that helps you enjoy your next act. I'm Kate Campion.
Sara: and I'm Sara Garska.
Kate: And In today's episode we're going to be talking about why we do things, have things and be things that no longer serve us and what we can do to counteract this. Okay, so Sara, my goal for this episode is that we're going to finish up with a strategy for living a bit more of an aligned life. But I'm going to start off by sharing a little bit about my book collection. So I'm an avid reader and reading has been something that's been really important to me in my life. And every house that I've lived in, of which there have been a lot, including houses overseas, I have taken my book collection with me. And I've really treasured those books and seen them as something super important in my life.
And about January 2020, so even before COVID started, I decided that what I was going to do, was that I was going to reread all these books that I had because I was kind of getting to the stage where I'd almost read all my favorite authors, andI thought, well, here I am with all these books. I haven't read for years. Let's see what it's like. And in the beginning, it was a really awesome experience. When I say in the beginning, I'm actually talking about probably until this year. So the books that I read were like often series that I really enjoyed. Things like Patricia Cornwell. Who else? Jonathan Kellermann, like kind of like crimey type things, you know. And it was just great. I was like, this is awesome.
And then this year, I started getting on to what I would describe as my chick lit phase of my collection, which was very popular, probably around the early 2000s. Think Bridget Jones Diary, you know, kind of books. And suddenly, I didn't enjoy them as much. I found that they were like a little bit dated. I didn't really connect with the characters. And it was like, actually, I don't want to have this book anymore. So even though these, you know, this book is one representation, had followed me from house to house to house to house. I got rid of them. And I started like accumulating this massive pile of books that I no longer wanted to have.
And this really got me thinking because, you know, if we actually look around our houses, it's almost like we're living in the past. Because everything that is surrounding us, our accessories, our physical address, even the clothes that we're wearing, even who we might be married to or not married to. You know, those are all decisions that we made in the past that are currently like shaping our present life. And what I want to suggest is that because we actually, like our books, you know, we have these things that we own, we have these relationships that we carry with us. even have these beliefs that we carry with us from year to year to year that we don't stop and examin, we can end up kind of living in the past without really thinking about whether those things really serve us anymore.
And when it comes to feeling stuck, I think that feeling of being stuck can be because you are sort of stuck in the past. So the first part of this is going to be, why do we? Why do we do this, right? So I'm going to talk about a couple of concepts and hopefully try and explain them as well as possible. And if I don't make any sense let me know.
So the first one is called Sunk Cost Fallacy. And this one is key I think when it comes to understanding why we stay stuck in relationships and careers that aren't working. So a Sunk Cost Fallacy is essentially where you don't want to abandon what you've been doing because you feel like you've invested so much in it. Classic example. I'm thinking about my second marriage. When I look back now I'm like what was I thinking? Why did I give seven years of my life to this person? When actually, it was hideous... It was hideous for so long, but it was like, well, I've already done this, I've already been with this person for x number of years.
It's like, you know, you've shown...
Sara: I'm shaking my head, yes.
Kate: You can relate. And careers is another really key one too, and in fact, I think actually careers can be even more impactful in midlife, because let's say, you know, in your early 20s, you went ahead, you trained for a specific career, maybe you've spent the last 20 years working in that career, moving yourself forward, but you actually don't like it anymore. And it's so hard to think, well, how do I give this up? I've already devoted 20 years of my life to it, right?
Sara: I see that in my coaching quite a bit with women who have been in a career for so many years, and so they've built up a certain salary and... I don't want to say just a comfort zone, but it is the world they know. They know their co-workers. they’re making a certain amount of money. But like you said, they're not happy in the work. And for some of my clients, it's a countdown to retirement. At which point, that's when they're going to do that thing that they really want to do. And so I think this is such a great topic because a lot of us do that around work and relationships. And I was laughing when you were talking about that. And sometimes things. So I'm going to combine a thing with a relationship.
So today I was wearing this ring. You can see it, our audience can't. But it was given to me in a previous relationship. A relationship I stayed in probably a year too long just because I'd already invested a couple years. I was like, yeah, didn't want to give it up. And I was wearing this ring today. And I don't even like it that much. Yeah, I do. But it doesn't suit me anymore. But it was expensive. And I'm like, it's my expensive ring. I don’t want to give it up even though it doesn’t fit me. So does that meet the criteria you’re talking about?
Kate: 100%. 100%. We can talk about what you can do with the ring at the end of this episode..
So moving on from the sunk cost fallacy.There's something that's really related to that. And it's also called commitment bias. And this is when we stick to what we did or we said in the past, even when we were actually wrong and the outcome didn’t turn out very well.
And by the way, I'll pop these definitions and where I got them from in the show notes as well so people can read it.
So how this kind of works is that people want to be consistent, like it's actually a really human desire to be consistent in our thoughts and actions. And so if we have been like really public about something, a belief that we have or something like that, to change it is actually quite a frightening experience because we feel like we're going to be perceived as not consistent, as maybe not even truthful, because hey, how can you say that this is what you think when I've got this video clip of you from 1996 saying this?
Sara: Like you’re not being, genuine. Or maybe even you were lying and trying to pull the wool over us.
Kate: 100%. Yeah. I think actually, you know, when we talk about cancel culture, which is It's really interesting thing in and of itself.If you think about that a lot of times, that is actually somebody taking something that was said in the past that reflected a belief, actually a cultural milieu, I don't know if that's the right word. the things that person had said or done was created in a specific environment, and that environment is no longer the same. But we still interpret that person's statements then as though they should have some kind of validity now or we judge them. So to take that back, we're kind of aware that we do that with others. So we've got that fear of doing that ourselves. And I think you noticed that yourself when you were talking about weight loss.
Sara: Yes. Because I started writing about it eight years ago and it was strictly as a hobby. was based on my own experience. And at that time, I was really strict. I had had done a whole 30. I did need sugar, artificial sweeteners, what else? Those were grains, flour, all that stuff. And so I ate really clean, and that's what I was like, this is what you should do. There was no intuitive eating, no all food is okay and everything. And in the last two or three years, I have softened my stance into there's no good / bad food. Some foods make us feel better, some probably are better for our body, but it's more realistic to accept all foods. And so all my current writing reflects that. But in the meantime, I have 30 posts out there that talk about food in a different way. And I've been working on updating those. But I miss some and sometimes I go back and read them and I can't believe that I used to write that way. And I'm thankful nobody is reading it.
But yes, I can identify with, yeah, we change.We have experiences, they work for us, they work in that time, but as we get older, grow, learn, inform ourselves, we start thinking about things differently, as we’ll find out in the next week or two.
Kate: The third thing is this idea of loss aversion. So far we've talked about the sunk cost fallacy like that idea that you've invested really heavily in things in the past and so it feels like you know you can't give up now you've already given this many years of your life to it or whatever it is.
We've talked about we want to seem consistent in the things that we're doing because actually it's challenging to you know I mean at least I guess you've got the luxury of going back and editing blog posts.
But there are things that people can say or do that that can't be changed and then what then ties into that as well as this idea of loss aversion and this comes when it's discussed it's often talked about in terms of this experiment where I could give you $100 or I could take $100 from you. And you would find the experience of me taking $100 off you much more painful than the joy that you would get from me giving you $100. Does that make sense?
Sara: Yes, your words make sense, but the example itself isn't quite making sense to me. If that makes sense, can we play around with it a little bit?
Kate: Yes, so let's say that you had a ring. A ring that you actually don't like and doesn't really suit you, but you're hanging onto it because it's expensive.
Sara: I would cry if I lost it. Yes, and I can, okay now it makes sense because I have a pair of earrings which you can't see because they're covered up. I bought them myself and I do love them. I've loved them since I bought them for myself. But a couple of, a few months ago, I'd lost them and I've about lost my mind for three weeks. When I say I went over this entire house, I scoured the… so I get it, I get it. That was way worse than when I got the earrings.
Kate Exactly. So losing something hurts more than gaining something and it's not even just with possessions. It can even be like... I know we talked about relationships in terms of investing in relationships that don't work, but actually getting down to fights. So when you're having an argument, your desire to not lose the argument is more painful than your feeling of satisfaction you get when you win the argument. So people will go to the death arguing their point even when they know that they're actually wrong. Because that pain of losing is so great. So...
Sara: I never thought of it that way. I love when we have these discussions and you introduced me to new... Yeah. those new ways of thinking about things. I love that one.
Kate: Awesome. So, the reason I introduced those three terms is I was trying to give a context to why it might be that we kind of live these lives that are created in the past, that we're almost living in the past, and why we might find it so painful to actually let those things go. Because we've invested so much in them, we've publicly stated that we are committed to them, and the pain of losing them can be really, really hard.
So how do we move into that mindset of living a life that's actually created by the future? Well, the first step is what I call, and this is the focus of this episode, the strategy that I'd like you to consider, is this idea of choosing again. So looking at things with the idea of choosing again. And we’re going to start off with the practical. So let’s think about having. Choosing again to have the clothes you’ve got hanging up in your wardrobe.
Now Sara, I don;t know about you, you’re very consistent with your weight, I’m not, I have got some clothes in my wardrobe I do not fit, I really, I really… the pain of getting rid of those clothes is definitely greater than the pain of buying some new clothes. However, if I was to actually like look at those clothes and put them on and say, would I buy this again? Like right now at this moment, if I were in a shop putting on this dress, would I actually buy it again?
And if the answer is no, then perhaps it's time to no longer have that thing. And I'll be talking a little bit more about soft ways to do that in an episode we're going to be discussing on midlife decluttering because I know that letting go is hard right, but that's one question you can ask yourself, would I buy this again? That's the same thing that you can do with your possessions as well. Would I actually buy that ring? If that ring that you've talked about was in a shop and even, hey, here's another question, a ring you really liked was right next to it, would you buy that ring?
Sara: I actually really do like it, but it just doesn't go with anything.The ring is staying, okay? But I can tell, so to everyone listening, I don't know how you're hearing all this, but I'm getting tense. Just thinking about the things in my home that I keep just because I can't quite get rid of them. And I don't have a lot of them. In some ways I'm a minimalist. But there are things that represent parts of my life and that's what I think for me is the hold up. It's a part of my life and whether it's good or bad, part of me just wants to hang on to it because it feels like letting go of a piece of me. On the clothing thing, I totally get it. I can picture my wardrobe and I can think of 10 things I would not buy again. I doubt I will ever wear and I still don't want to get rid of them.
Kate: You don't have to get rid of things that you don't want to. This is just like a strategy for thinking if you've got stuff around you that you like. I don't know that I really do want this anymore. I think what you said is really important because you said you felt tense and I'm very big in actually thinking about what does this feel like in my body. If you're actually asking yourself this question but you've got that feeling of tenseness because you don't want to let it go, then it's not time to let it go.
Sara: That's such a good point.
Kate: As simple as that, right? You don't have to do things that actually make you feel uncomfortable. But to go back to the examples, it can be useful still to do like an audit. You know, like actually looking, okay, yep, I'm going to look at that ring. Yeah, okay, I've said that there are things that I don't like about it. But actually, I'm really attached to this. So yeah, I still want this in my life. You know, it's actually do I still want this in my life.
You can do it with your house as well. Now, the house that my husband and I lived in prior to moving down to Wellington was a house that we'd built. It was our dream home. was like everything in it, the color, the tiles, my favorite tap. know, everything about it was things that I'd chosen that I really, really loved. And that made it very, very hard to let go of. But we reached a point where we thought if we were to actually know what we know now, about living here, would we still make the same choice, the answer was no. And that was enough for us to decide that actually despite the love that we had for our home and the way that it looked, the actual physical environment that we were in wasn't actually working for us anymore. So you can do this practice of choosing again, like I said, with things that you have, your clothes, your houses, the possessions that you've got in your house.
You can even do it in relationships. Would I actually want to have this relationship if I were to choose it again?
Sara: I think about that sometimes and a lot of times the answer is no. person I am now wouldn't have. And I like something and I think you're going to get to it that you had said was we're also now choosing for our future self.
Kate: That's correct.
Sara: And that part’s keeping me invested in this rather than running away.
Kate: That's such a good point. I want to remind us of, because we're thinking about if we feel stuck and it's because we're kind of surrounded by all these past choices, how do we actually move forward to live for our future self? And that can work as well, think, with things like the things that you do for fun, the things that, you know, maybe it's been like running as a good example for me, you know, I've run for many years now. I actually had a pelvic physiotherapist ask me if I liked running. And I said, well, I don't really like running because the reason I'd gone to her for a pelvic prolapse, you know, is made worse from running, right? So she was like, do you like running? And I was like, no, not really. And then she said, well, why do you do it then?
And then I was like, well, if you told me that I couldn't do it, I actually wouldn't be happy. Right. so that was an example in some ways and that's question with her of choosing again, right? Because she was sort of saying, okay, time to choose again. You might have been running for x number of years, do you still want to do that. Actually, yeah, I did because the thought of not having it in my life wasn't good for me, but having a little audit of that stuff.
Sometimes our careers that we're doing, like I said, if I could wave a wand and be doing an alternative, would I? Is a question you can ask yourself. And also about your goals as well. And then finally, you can move down to the actual being so you could do a bit of an audit of your beliefs and values. Like going back to your example that you said about food, okay, do I still actually believe that Whole30, for example, is tthe only way to go if I was to make that decision again now? Do I still have that belief?
Sara: I think it was very worthwhile to do for 30 days, but looking back, I don't believe that I or anyone else has to live completely like that, that it's very I have restrictive and which is part of the reason it is. It's supposed to eliminate foods.You can figure out what to retrain your brain and your body. That being said, I don't even have people start with things like that. I believe let's start with food we actually eat instead of trying to eliminate everything. And so I have changed and it's reflected in my work.
Kate: So to sum this up, what I've suggested is that there are some key reasons why we stay stuck in the past. But if we want to move into the future, having that idea of choosing again is quite useful. I'm going to repeat just to sum up the questions that I asked as I was going through that a little bit before so you can consider them. So they were like, would I buy this thing again? Another question that I didn't mention that I love this one is, would I take it if it were free? And actually, as an aside, that's something that when I'm in a shop and if I'm looking at something and I'm trying to decide if I want to buy it, sometimes I ask myself, would I take this if it were free? And sometimes you'd be surprised that you think, no, it's like, okay, well, that's the sign not to buy it.
Another question is, knowing what I know now, would I choose to have this in my life or make this choice? And I think, like, for me, when I talked about my second marriage, like that, that's a really powerful one. what I know now, would I actually go and do this? If I could wave a wand and be doing an alternative, would I? Here's another question to ask too.Would someone looking at my life want this?
Sara: Oh, that’s a food one, and I had this thought as you were wrapping everything up because what I see and I've seen it in myself at times, that when something about the way you said being stuck just resonated with me. And I think sometimes we can have create like when you just I think it was when you were describing your dream house and how perfect it was. And I hear this so much and I think a home is one of those big things where we have put a lot of money into it and a lot of time and then like you discovered the home was great but where you lived wasn't perfect. And I could have seen it going easily the other way. Like we bought this house, we put so much money into it, we put the money into the renovations, we can't leave. And I do, I see people stuck just because of their possessions, their home, the furniture they have. And I'm sitting here thinking, I've got a home and in a way I feel trapped. I love my home.
And so that one really resonated with me. And so I love this conversation and I love that there's so much space that you don't have to run out and go get rid of everything. But it's creating space to consider, is. this adding to my life? Or is it holding me back? And sometimes our stuff really does hold us back. And when you mentioned that we're going to be doing a decluttering episode, I got really excited because I love decluttering, just FYI.
Kate: So do I. But I think actually it's really important to acknowledge two things you said there. One was about the creating of the space because yeah, that's exactly what the purpose of this is doing is to actually think about how can I create the space for the new me to come in when I'm so surrounded by my past and all these things that I have and do and be.
And the second thing actually that I was thinking about too was it is really important to acknowledge that a lot of these come with a lot of emotions as well. So this is just a strategy. It's not saying that you actually have to get rid of those things. Almost in some ways it's like planting the seed in your mind that that's possible, you know, and, and again, we'll talk about that in the mid-life decluttering a little bit more. But right, don't feel this means, you know, you have to suddenly go and quit your job, sell your house, ditch your husband, go and live in a van. It's more thinking about doing a bit of an audit, because then you’ve got a bit more of a realistic starting point as to how you can move forward.
Sara: I think it's so important. Even as we've sat here talking about it, I think about that ring. I had two rings and one of them like, I'm hanging on to it, almost felt like hanging on to the relationship. And so by putting it away, it was like closing a door on that relationship in a healthy way. And so you might not feel like getting rid of things right away. And so all we're doing is introducing the idea that if it doesn't feel right, if it doesn't fit you, and I don't mean just the size of your clothes, I mean, if it doesn't fit who you are now, then it just doesn't have a place in your house. And I'm going to throw in one little more example about that relationship where the ring came from. So a few months ago, this person was moving and he said, would you like the dining room table and chairs, you can have them?
Kate: Oh, because i know you don’t have a dining room table an chairs
Sara: Yes, I am the person who is still using folding chairs and a folding table when I have company over. And I went and looked at it. And I just sent him a message and said, this doesn’t fit who I am now. And so even though I desperately needed table and chairs, I knew in the moment it didn’t fit. It was a tie to the past me, it had sentimental value because I sat at the table with my grandkids, I have pictures of it, but it didn't fit in this house.
Kate: No, it didn't fit in with current sara and future sara.Such a good example to finish with. So just to wrap up then, we do things, have things and be things that don't serve us anymore. They keep us stuck and they can keep us living a life that isn't really an alignment with who we are now. But we also do those for some very good, well known reasons. That sunk cost fallacy, the commitment bias and loss of version. So if you're feeling like you might benefit from choosing again, just go back and ask those key questions I mentioned. I'll pop them in the show notes and you can apply them to the relevant areas of your life and see where you go from there. Thank you.
Sara: Sounds great.